Chubb, Wolseley, Cogswell , Greener , No1 Mk111/111* Survey

[AlanD]

Hi Guys

For my book on British & Commonwealth Military Signal Pistols, I am requesting the help of forum members in building a data base of serial numbers, date of manufacture and model, for the above makers of the brass one inch signal pistols, known as No1 Mk 111 or No1 Mk111*.

The 4 important pieces of information are:

Maker.

Serial Number.

Model: If the pistol has the saftey stop meaning the barrel can not be opened with the hammer cocked, these should be marked 111*

Year: Date stamped on the barrel and frame, 14,15,16,17,18. In the case of Wolseley early manufacture examples will have 1917 stamped on the side of the frame in large letters, after that just 18 appears. WW Greener pistols from WW2 are out there, these are all Mk111* and will have a WW2 date stamped on them, I am interested in these as well. Greener was the only maker of these pistols in WW2.

All help will be acknowledged in the book. Post photos if you can or e-mail me on the following e-mail address. alandavid303AToptusnet.com.au replace AT with @ - just trying to foil the web crawlers.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards

Alan David
Sydney
Australia

[Dr.E13]

Hello Alan,

Welcome to the forum.

This is a great place to learn and share.

Here is a site with infornation and a contact that may be of use to you:

http://www.slideshare.net/tcattermole/b ... -lecture-h

"British Flare Pistols 1882 to 1919 – A dip into the recordsMolly MilnerLecture to the Historical Breechloading SmallarmsAssociationImperial War Museum,London 18th April 2011 Page 1 of 14"

[AlanD]

Yes thank you Dr.E13. Richard and Molly Milner have a lot of the Webley & Scott records. They have extended great kindness -not to mention patience- in allowing me to spend several days sat at their dining room table going through some of these records. Out of all the Great War makers, W&S seem to be the only firm with records relating to production. I am following up a hot lead for the Wolseley Sheep Shearing Co, as I have not had any luck in locating records for them and thier war time production. We will see what happens there. The Cogswell & Harrison records are now in Ireland, but from a couple of telephone conversations they do not seem to have anything on thier signal pistol production. I have not found any records relating to Chubb, but the contract was only for 500 pistols, although the Pattern Room, now National Firearms Centre in Leeds, UK, have an example in the 600 serial number range. I have met with Graeme Greener but did not get the chance to look at the relevant records on the day.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

[Dr.E13]

Is there any connection between Wolsoley Sheep Shearing Company and Wolsoley Motors?

Thanks,

[AlanD]

Yes. Wolseley was an Australian who invented a mechanical sheep shearing machine, he took his invention to the UK to make his fortune, and did. An off-shoot of the WSS Co was Wolseley Motors which was sold to Vickers. It then became the biggest selling motor car in the UK. The WW1 signal pistol contract was let to the WSS Co.

The final descendant of WSS Co is a huge plumbing supplies company in the UK. They have a web site which acknowledges their history.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

[964AWACS]

Unfortunately, I cannot contribute much as my only example of a No1 MkIII* is a W&S. However, I do want to wish you the best of luck in your research and look forward to your book!

[signalman]

Here is a list of some of my pistols. This is from my ledger which has some errors, I will correct them as I find them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, the very rare Mk II Dated '05 ( 1905 ) with no serial number, and steel parts in the white. Obviously a pattern or pre-production gun.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mk III's

1913 dated serial # 1,496 W&S
1914 dated serial # 3,478 W&S
1915 dated serials # 9,058 W&S German captured and unit marked "21.LON.7"
--- "------ "----- " # 5,011 W&S
--- " ------ " ----- " # 18,333 W&S - Covered in Trench art
--- " ----- " ----- " # 20,354 W&S German captured and unit marked "RJR.55.9K"
--- " ----- " ----- " # 31,175 W&S
1916 --- " ----- " # 34,023 W&S
--- " ----- " ----- " # 42,853 W&S
1917 --- " ----- " # 46842 W&S
-------------------------------------------
1916 " ----- "----- # 64893 Cogswell & Harrison
--- " ----- " ----- " # 63721 Cogswell & Harrison
--- " ----- " ----- " # 61793 Cogswell & Harrison - reworked
-------------------------------------------
Commercial Webley, No Dates # 7406
---- " ----------- "------ "---- " # 15,305
---- " ----------- "------ " ---- " # 53,832
-------------------------------------------------
1915 Dated Serial # 657 WW Greener
1916 Dated Serial # 3645 WW Greener
1916 Dated Serial # 281 WW Greener
----------------------------------------------------
Serial # 537 Chubb

[signalman]

These are some of my No1 Mark III*'s - all have belled or flared barrel extension

Webley & Scotts

Date--------Serial Number

1912-------- # 689 - Black Painted , Military proofed, lanyard ring, flared barrel
1913-------- #1,243 - Military proofed, lanyard ring, flared barrel
1913-------- #1,656 - Military proofed, lanyard ring, flared barrel removed - standard bbl.
1916-------- #40,524
1917-------- #68,356
1917-------- #80,686
1918-------- #99,182
1918-------- #102,227 - No Webley bullet proof
1918-------- #106,613
1918-------- #124,524
1918-------- #133,379 - Australia proofed
1918-------- #133,686

Cogswell & Harrison

1915-------- #51,490
1918-------- #75,072

WW Greener

1941-------- #759
1941-------- #769
1941-------- #810

Schermuly - Pat. 503324

No Date ---- #52,287

CSR

1941------- #2,236 - Bakelite Grip
1941------- #2,860 - Bakelite Grip
1942 ------- 9,746 - Bakelite Grip
1942------- #9,941 - Bakelite Grip
1943--------#21,480 Wood Grip

Wolseley

1918------- #17,126 --New Zealand proofed
1918------- #15,520 -- Australia proofed
1918------- #16,137 -- Canada proofed
1918------- # 17,744
1917/18 -- # 4,664
1917/18 -- # 2,938

Commercial - No maker or date

# 20,057

[Hebel94]

Dear Alan,

Here are the references of my MK III and MK III*. I can email you pictures of those which are of interest to you.

MK III
Serial number 412 dated 1915 - Chubb
Serial number 1898 dated 1916 – Greener
Serial number 2517 dated 1914 – W&S (this version has no lanyard ring)
Serial number 23270 dated 1916 – W&S
Serial number 55594 dated 1916 – Cogswell

MK III *
Serial number 120534 dated 1918 – W&S (the design of the hammer is slightly different)
Serial number 133398 dated 1918 – W&S (NZ marking)
Serial number 3864 dated 1918 – Wolseley 1917

[K & K Collection]

Hi Alan

Here my Mk III and III*

Mark III

W&S 1915 N° 12888
N° 4101
N° 8603
W&S. 1916. N° 34813
Greener 1915. N° 956
Schermulys. N° 5299 this version has no lanyard ring and no date

Mark III*

W&S 1917. N° 62141
1918. N° 132588

Wolseley 1917. N° 2076
1918. N° 15363 New Zealand

Cogswell & Harrison. 1918 N° 73977

CSR 1942. N° 10747. Bakelit grip
CSR 1943. N° 25126. Bakelit grip

Schermulys. N° 10887
SPRA. N° 77053

Alan, if you want, I can email you pictures of those which are of interest to you.